If we were never created then we would miss the opportunities (or as Alan calls them invitations from God) that bring us closer to holiness.
I wish there were more than 36.
Unfortunately I believe the majority of people are on automatic without regard to the impact they cause. And feeling to small to count when in fact we know they do.
I know our world is filled with polarities and I believe that is the way it is supposed to be. Having said that I would like an infusion of love and kindness to balance the cruelty of our times.
Doesn’t it all start with us, Robbie? How can we expect something of the world if we are not doing that ourselves? I believe a lot happens because of the decisions one person makes.
I am presently working on our newest program Ethics, Spirituality, Love and belonging in the workplace. I’m taping it now. I really hate taping.
In any event, I wanted to share a quote that I used to use at the end of my programs. I don’t use it anymore, but it certainly speaks to the fact that one person makes a difference. It’s by Scott Peck.
“ the whole course of human history may depend on a change of heart in one solitary and even humble individual for it is the solitary mind and soul of the individual that the battle between good and evil is waged and ultimately one or lost.
I have been making a similar point in some of my talks, Robbie, when I say that steps taken by an individual to thrive in his or her own life is a contribution to the thriving of the community. It’s inconceivable that a community could thrive in which the individuals are not thriving, and so what we do in our personal spiritual lives has a social impact.
I voted for Hillel as I always hope for the outcome closest to holiness. In the Torah it says choose life, in this case it translates to choosing to have humans on the earth. It is disappointing to realize that it seems few people trust the One above and it also seems even fewer people believe in the One above. Despite what appears obvious, I pray and hope that humans look inward as much as they look outward and that we all begin to be holy and whole humans.
Kate, it can be hard to trust God, and maybe our generation is one of the most challenged because with all the media we are exposed to, our ears and minds are filled daily with news of catastrophes happening all over the world. Previous generations did not have instant access to the tragedies. A diet of really bad news has to affect how we look at life. Maybe trust in God is inversely related to how much news scrolling a person does. Just speculating.
Very good point Alan, thank you. I have heard from so many that line of reasoning. However, because it is hard to trust in God I feel that one/I have to keep trying. Is it God that is creating this “evil” in the world or is it man? I feel God is above good and evil. I may be very naive and I feel that when horrible things happen there is always a reason, I just may never know why. Whatever that horrible thing is that happened is still an opportunity to learn something. Even if it only reinforces the belief I have that I won’t always know why. The world won’t get better if I don’t commit to making it better. My way of committing to improving the world is by trusting in God. I hope this makes some semblance of sense.
It certainly makes sense, Kate. I think everyone has to find their own way to relate to these issues because there is really no solid proof for one idea over another. In the end, as Rabbi Perr taught, it all comes down to how we conduct ourselves in this world.
I voted for Shammai in a narrow sense of the question. It would have been better for ALL of creation if we'd not been created, clearly, as we continue to decimate the rest of creation (and in doing so roll towards our own undoing.) On the Hillel side, well, I love life, love other humans and nature and how incredible to have consciousness, this gift of existence. It's funny to think of another species asking this question: Should we -- the bears, the spiders,, plankton, apes -- never have existed? Absurd, I know, but makes me think how there's something in the very nature of our bottomless questioning that is part of our gorgeousness and part of our downfall.
Nice question, Carol. I am sure my dog doesn’t question his existence, being much more inside the life experience (which expresses itself in terms of treats wheedled and smells explored). The self-reflective capability of our species is remarkable. In Hebrew, the word for conscience is matzpun and the word for compass is matzpen. That’s part of the hard wiring we are born with, even if we have the capacity to ignore and override.
I feel that my understandings and ability to move forward are always blocked as this discussion is so often brought up, and what always comes up for me is ... If G-d created ALL, why not create a world, including the world's humans, who do live and express only good, loving, nuturing, giving, and sense of responsibility? We are forever told that humans act the way they do because they have free will, or because they are just human with negative ways.
But, G-d's will came first. Why create a world and humans with such negative qualities that lead us only to pain and suffering, and then tell us the journies of redemption (Mussar practices?) rebuild human character and allow us to change?
Why did G-d not create a world In the first place (including it's humans) to be angels in an angelic world? The always ongoing (& unanswerable) question.
Honestly, Jeri, I think if we lived in a world of angelic goodness and consistency we would be bored out of our minds. And that’s not all — we would be as static and unchanging as the world. Clearly, human beings are born with the capacity to learn and grow, and the world is set up as it is so we can exercise free will, learn and grow. I can’t help but wish people would learn enough not to continue repeating the same behaviours we have already seen to be so destructive, but that does not mean we all have to do the same in our personal lives.
My vote would be for Rav In-Between: Humans are, by nature, self-serving, egotistical, and power hungry AND humans are by nature kind, generous, humble and introspective (that last part is what makes us human, right?). If G8d is all energies, available to all beings, some folks will always draw on the destructive forces, some from the generative. I couldn’t possibly guess where the majority stands, although right now it seems like the self-serving have it… And so it goes, back and forth in giant pendulum swings. I am grateful that there seem to be enough folks who draw on the generative, love-based energies to keep us afloat.
It does seem that the pendulum swings, yet we as a species do make some small steps forward, often followed by retreats. Overall, are we a more elevated and wise species than we were 1,000 years ago? I’d say, yes, but not by nearly as much as we could be. We still have work to do.
The words of that dispute were whether "noach lo le'adam shelo nivra -- it is pleasanter? / easier? for a person had they not been created." Which is significantly different than "better". If God did it, it must be better for the person to exist. It's hard, and we often have trials to live through.
I read the quote as the rabbis concluding that life is good, but difficult.
--
"Although Hillel and Shammai debated for two and a half years..."
The Talmud attributes the large number of disputes between their schools, Beis Hillel and Beis Shamai, to the students' not sufficiently apprenticing under their mentors. Which means it is unfair to Hillel and Shammai to attribute their students' disputes to them.
The Maharal explains it this way: Hillel and Shammai were the pair of political leaders of their generation. Hillel was the Nasi (roughly: president), and Shammai was the head of the Sanhedrin. The students didn't spend enough time with their teachers, so they didn't see the person behind the role. And so Beis Hillel ended up favoring rulings that maximize the physical welfare of the people who would follow them, and Beis Shammai was more concerned with well-defined boundaries of the law. Qabbalists typically identify their emphases as Beis Hillel saw the centrality of Chessed / Lovingkindness, and Beis Shammai focused on the importance of Din / Law. But in the ideal, we need the Middle Measure.
Perhaps we rule like Beis Hillel in the vast majority of cases because until we get there, most of us need more work on the Lovingkindness side.
These biases fit the debate here too. The Nasi's students emphasized making the world pleasanter for each other -- they had to believe that existing is pleasanter than not. Whereas the Chief Justice's students learned to see the need to correct failure, and therefore to them life was a struggle.
Thanks, Micha. You’ve expanded the frame and helped put these ideas in historical and ideological context. Maybe an important takeaway is that we also need to pay closer attention to our teachers and their teachings before we start taking positions.
God created us free and responsible, with the capacity to align with his truth and will. Sadly, of course, we often misuse and even abuse this gift. But, the saints and sages show us the path, with glimmers with hope! So, I'm (on balance) with Hillel!
Rambam teaches that everyone should view themselves as living in a world perfectly balanced between merit and guilt. The next action you take will tip this 50/50 balance, and not just for you but for the world. There is a lot of responsibility in being a human.
I vote for the ability to vote - celebrating that capacity to choose with the humility that we simply doing know for sure. Even the greatest of our sages could not resolve the debate - to much unknown. Same with Iran I think. With individuals we strive to judge on the side of merit. As nations, maybe there’s a different metric we need to use.
The Talmud resolves the choice in such an interesting way. Whatever the vote said, that was hypothetical, because we are here. That’s incontestable. So now what? And that is where the Talmud focuses, urging us to be introspective and accountable.
I love your poetic approach. Some things ring true in poetry and sink to the bottom of the lake in prose. But I am not sure we are born broken. That sounds a bit like original sin to my ear. There is a simplicity about infants that is so pure and whole.
Thanks to Eve here for putting “leading” in quotes. The only political leaders we have here in the states are in the minority and thus, powerless. My optimism is strained.
I always seem to side with Hillel. Don’t know what that indicates. .
Well, the rulings of the rabbis almost always side with Hillel as well. One reason given is that Hillel always stated Shammai’s opinion before giving his own. He was acknowledging his debating partner and showing that he had understood the point, even if he then went on to state a different view. Just to underline the subtlety of the tradition, there were 18 instances when the ruling went in favour of Shammai. This, too, is a model for us because it resists the clear binary view.
I think that relative to the planet we live on, every new generation, in fact every new human brings in new information, redemption and hope. YHVH commanded that Amalek, his people and cattle be annihilated so that all evil will be ended. But, humans still have the inclination for good and the inclination for evil. At this juncture, it doesn’t look good! We have leaders “leading” from their egos…never works.
Ty for allowing my blah blah blah. It comes honestly from my present pain. Alternatively, I have hope but it is diminished.
If we were never created then we would miss the opportunities (or as Alan calls them invitations from God) that bring us closer to holiness.
I wish there were more than 36.
Unfortunately I believe the majority of people are on automatic without regard to the impact they cause. And feeling to small to count when in fact we know they do.
I know our world is filled with polarities and I believe that is the way it is supposed to be. Having said that I would like an infusion of love and kindness to balance the cruelty of our times.
Doesn’t it all start with us, Robbie? How can we expect something of the world if we are not doing that ourselves? I believe a lot happens because of the decisions one person makes.
I am presently working on our newest program Ethics, Spirituality, Love and belonging in the workplace. I’m taping it now. I really hate taping.
In any event, I wanted to share a quote that I used to use at the end of my programs. I don’t use it anymore, but it certainly speaks to the fact that one person makes a difference. It’s by Scott Peck.
“ the whole course of human history may depend on a change of heart in one solitary and even humble individual for it is the solitary mind and soul of the individual that the battle between good and evil is waged and ultimately one or lost.
I have been making a similar point in some of my talks, Robbie, when I say that steps taken by an individual to thrive in his or her own life is a contribution to the thriving of the community. It’s inconceivable that a community could thrive in which the individuals are not thriving, and so what we do in our personal spiritual lives has a social impact.
For sure, Alan. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Be well.
I voted for Hillel as I always hope for the outcome closest to holiness. In the Torah it says choose life, in this case it translates to choosing to have humans on the earth. It is disappointing to realize that it seems few people trust the One above and it also seems even fewer people believe in the One above. Despite what appears obvious, I pray and hope that humans look inward as much as they look outward and that we all begin to be holy and whole humans.
Kate, it can be hard to trust God, and maybe our generation is one of the most challenged because with all the media we are exposed to, our ears and minds are filled daily with news of catastrophes happening all over the world. Previous generations did not have instant access to the tragedies. A diet of really bad news has to affect how we look at life. Maybe trust in God is inversely related to how much news scrolling a person does. Just speculating.
Very good point Alan, thank you. I have heard from so many that line of reasoning. However, because it is hard to trust in God I feel that one/I have to keep trying. Is it God that is creating this “evil” in the world or is it man? I feel God is above good and evil. I may be very naive and I feel that when horrible things happen there is always a reason, I just may never know why. Whatever that horrible thing is that happened is still an opportunity to learn something. Even if it only reinforces the belief I have that I won’t always know why. The world won’t get better if I don’t commit to making it better. My way of committing to improving the world is by trusting in God. I hope this makes some semblance of sense.
It certainly makes sense, Kate. I think everyone has to find their own way to relate to these issues because there is really no solid proof for one idea over another. In the end, as Rabbi Perr taught, it all comes down to how we conduct ourselves in this world.
I voted for Shammai in a narrow sense of the question. It would have been better for ALL of creation if we'd not been created, clearly, as we continue to decimate the rest of creation (and in doing so roll towards our own undoing.) On the Hillel side, well, I love life, love other humans and nature and how incredible to have consciousness, this gift of existence. It's funny to think of another species asking this question: Should we -- the bears, the spiders,, plankton, apes -- never have existed? Absurd, I know, but makes me think how there's something in the very nature of our bottomless questioning that is part of our gorgeousness and part of our downfall.
Nice question, Carol. I am sure my dog doesn’t question his existence, being much more inside the life experience (which expresses itself in terms of treats wheedled and smells explored). The self-reflective capability of our species is remarkable. In Hebrew, the word for conscience is matzpun and the word for compass is matzpen. That’s part of the hard wiring we are born with, even if we have the capacity to ignore and override.
I feel that my understandings and ability to move forward are always blocked as this discussion is so often brought up, and what always comes up for me is ... If G-d created ALL, why not create a world, including the world's humans, who do live and express only good, loving, nuturing, giving, and sense of responsibility? We are forever told that humans act the way they do because they have free will, or because they are just human with negative ways.
But, G-d's will came first. Why create a world and humans with such negative qualities that lead us only to pain and suffering, and then tell us the journies of redemption (Mussar practices?) rebuild human character and allow us to change?
Why did G-d not create a world In the first place (including it's humans) to be angels in an angelic world? The always ongoing (& unanswerable) question.
Honestly, Jeri, I think if we lived in a world of angelic goodness and consistency we would be bored out of our minds. And that’s not all — we would be as static and unchanging as the world. Clearly, human beings are born with the capacity to learn and grow, and the world is set up as it is so we can exercise free will, learn and grow. I can’t help but wish people would learn enough not to continue repeating the same behaviours we have already seen to be so destructive, but that does not mean we all have to do the same in our personal lives.
My vote would be for Rav In-Between: Humans are, by nature, self-serving, egotistical, and power hungry AND humans are by nature kind, generous, humble and introspective (that last part is what makes us human, right?). If G8d is all energies, available to all beings, some folks will always draw on the destructive forces, some from the generative. I couldn’t possibly guess where the majority stands, although right now it seems like the self-serving have it… And so it goes, back and forth in giant pendulum swings. I am grateful that there seem to be enough folks who draw on the generative, love-based energies to keep us afloat.
Thank you for the wonderful work you are doing!
It does seem that the pendulum swings, yet we as a species do make some small steps forward, often followed by retreats. Overall, are we a more elevated and wise species than we were 1,000 years ago? I’d say, yes, but not by nearly as much as we could be. We still have work to do.
The words of that dispute were whether "noach lo le'adam shelo nivra -- it is pleasanter? / easier? for a person had they not been created." Which is significantly different than "better". If God did it, it must be better for the person to exist. It's hard, and we often have trials to live through.
I read the quote as the rabbis concluding that life is good, but difficult.
--
"Although Hillel and Shammai debated for two and a half years..."
The Talmud attributes the large number of disputes between their schools, Beis Hillel and Beis Shamai, to the students' not sufficiently apprenticing under their mentors. Which means it is unfair to Hillel and Shammai to attribute their students' disputes to them.
The Maharal explains it this way: Hillel and Shammai were the pair of political leaders of their generation. Hillel was the Nasi (roughly: president), and Shammai was the head of the Sanhedrin. The students didn't spend enough time with their teachers, so they didn't see the person behind the role. And so Beis Hillel ended up favoring rulings that maximize the physical welfare of the people who would follow them, and Beis Shammai was more concerned with well-defined boundaries of the law. Qabbalists typically identify their emphases as Beis Hillel saw the centrality of Chessed / Lovingkindness, and Beis Shammai focused on the importance of Din / Law. But in the ideal, we need the Middle Measure.
Perhaps we rule like Beis Hillel in the vast majority of cases because until we get there, most of us need more work on the Lovingkindness side.
These biases fit the debate here too. The Nasi's students emphasized making the world pleasanter for each other -- they had to believe that existing is pleasanter than not. Whereas the Chief Justice's students learned to see the need to correct failure, and therefore to them life was a struggle.
Thanks, Micha. You’ve expanded the frame and helped put these ideas in historical and ideological context. Maybe an important takeaway is that we also need to pay closer attention to our teachers and their teachings before we start taking positions.
And that there is a lot to learn that is ineffable. Cannot be taught by books or course material, only by immersion.
God created us free and responsible, with the capacity to align with his truth and will. Sadly, of course, we often misuse and even abuse this gift. But, the saints and sages show us the path, with glimmers with hope! So, I'm (on balance) with Hillel!
Rambam teaches that everyone should view themselves as living in a world perfectly balanced between merit and guilt. The next action you take will tip this 50/50 balance, and not just for you but for the world. There is a lot of responsibility in being a human.
Excellent. This principle (of tipping the balance by our actions) is compelling!
I vote for the ability to vote - celebrating that capacity to choose with the humility that we simply doing know for sure. Even the greatest of our sages could not resolve the debate - to much unknown. Same with Iran I think. With individuals we strive to judge on the side of merit. As nations, maybe there’s a different metric we need to use.
The Talmud resolves the choice in such an interesting way. Whatever the vote said, that was hypothetical, because we are here. That’s incontestable. So now what? And that is where the Talmud focuses, urging us to be introspective and accountable.
Things to stay aware of:
Learn how to love
Forgive
Be humble
My take on our humanity is:
We are born broken
We live by mending
Grace is the glue
I love your poetic approach. Some things ring true in poetry and sink to the bottom of the lake in prose. But I am not sure we are born broken. That sounds a bit like original sin to my ear. There is a simplicity about infants that is so pure and whole.
While I would like to think that humanity is capable of Hillel's position, it has not shown itself to be -- yet!
Humanity, maybe not. Individual humans and even some groups have done redemptive things, affirming the possibility.
We are here, it would be egotistical to decide we know better than whether we should have been created or not.
Interesting perspective. Thanks.
I hear you, but I didn't interpret the question that way.
Thanks to Eve here for putting “leading” in quotes. The only political leaders we have here in the states are in the minority and thus, powerless. My optimism is strained.
I always seem to side with Hillel. Don’t know what that indicates. .
Well, the rulings of the rabbis almost always side with Hillel as well. One reason given is that Hillel always stated Shammai’s opinion before giving his own. He was acknowledging his debating partner and showing that he had understood the point, even if he then went on to state a different view. Just to underline the subtlety of the tradition, there were 18 instances when the ruling went in favour of Shammai. This, too, is a model for us because it resists the clear binary view.
I think that relative to the planet we live on, every new generation, in fact every new human brings in new information, redemption and hope. YHVH commanded that Amalek, his people and cattle be annihilated so that all evil will be ended. But, humans still have the inclination for good and the inclination for evil. At this juncture, it doesn’t look good! We have leaders “leading” from their egos…never works.
Ty for allowing my blah blah blah. It comes honestly from my present pain. Alternatively, I have hope but it is diminished.
Maybe we so celebrate a new baby’s birth because that infant human being brings a new hope into the world.